Mugging Jamie

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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby Alex Starkiller » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:17 pm

typhon wrote:It's a cultural thing, I guess. I've only ever met one person who owned guns.

Well, I go out once a year with dozens of people from my church who all own several. Very fun.

A baseball bat is silent, untraceable, and easier to find. It's also easier to use (many people don't know how to use a gun correctly).

Silent and untraceable are good aspects if you actually plan on using it to injure somone. If all you want to do is intimidate, a gun is pretty effective.
As for easier to find, not really. You can get guns at any Walmart [I've been to], though that could be just the Super Walmarts... And I don't know where you live so I can't REALLY be sure.
And using a gun correctly? It is really just loading a clip into the gun, cocking the gun, undoing the safety, and squeezing the trigger in the direction you want to shoot. I guess those could be complicated to a complete novice, plus a lot of little things like using one hand to cover the over on the grip for beginners, but it's not TOO complicated.
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby pumpkincat » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:30 am

Chiming in to agree with Alex Starkiller on this one - there are many reasons why someone might own a gun other than to mug people. There are even reasons beyond collecting them or pure self-defense against other humans.

I own several firearms. I'm a farmer. I have between 60 and 100 sheep at any given time on my property, along with geese, ducks, chickens and cats, and over two hundred fruit trees.

The area I live in is rife with wildlife which likes to make off with or even just savage our livestock. Without attempting to make a truly exhaustive list, we have had run-ins with, sightings of, or been told of first-hand sightings of by neighbours, coyotes, raccoons, various birds of prey (including some which we are prohibited from shooting or shooting /at/ by federal law), black bears, cougars, occasional wolverines, and gradually due to some rather idiotic decisions concerning restrictions in hunting and expansions in protected territory, grizzly bears. We are also likely to begin seeing wolf packs coming into the area within the next 5-10 years.

Then there's the wild dog and coy-dog problem, caused by city people coming into the country and dumping their no longer wanted pet dogs on the theory that the dogs will return to the land and/or be taken in by local farmers. We've had to put down a couple of sheep because of this; these people are on my little list.

How this relates to the topic at hand: I carry a firearm on a near-daily basis, and have different firearms for different purposes. They're not all useful for the same things; my sidearm, with which I can scare off or kill a stray dog if it gets aggressive with me, won't cut much ice with a black bear. My 45-70, on the other hand, is definite overkill for a dog, and would tenderize my shoulder nicely if I had to fire it in a non-emergency situation. And not all of my firearms are strictly for farm-related purposes; there's some overlap with other purposes.

Jamie is definitely being overconfident in this situation. Unless he's secretly a magical ninja, even if he's packing himself, one does try not to get weapons pointed at oneself. And the cardinal rule of firearms safety is you don't point a firearm, loaded or otherwise, at anything you don't intend to shoot (all firearms being considered magically loaded even if you just checked fifteen seconds ago).
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby pumpkincat » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:47 am

Alex Starkiller wrote:
typhon wrote:It's a cultural thing, I guess. I've only ever met one person who owned guns.

Well, I go out once a year with dozens of people from my church who all own several. Very fun.

A baseball bat is silent, untraceable, and easier to find. It's also easier to use (many people don't know how to use a gun correctly).

Silent and untraceable are good aspects if you actually plan on using it to injure somone. If all you want to do is intimidate, a gun is pretty effective.
As for easier to find, not really. You can get guns at any Walmart [I've been to], though that could be just the Super Walmarts... And I don't know where you live so I can't REALLY be sure.
And using a gun correctly? It is really just loading a clip into the gun, cocking the gun, undoing the safety, and squeezing the trigger in the direction you want to shoot. I guess those could be complicated to a complete novice, plus a lot of little things like using one hand to cover the over on the grip for beginners, but it's not TOO complicated.


I should've addressed this with my other post - sorry about that. A lot of firearms today really ARE just 'point and shoot'. This is why a lot of gun legislation these days relates to things like trigger locks. Regarding ease of purchase - most Walmarts with a sporting goods counter do sell firearms of some sort. Not as big a selection as an actual gun shop, or some place like say Cabela's. And there's a federally mandated three day waiting period on most firearms, waivable only under certain circumstances, such as if the purchaser holds a current concealed carry permit (not all states have one). If there's a ccp involved, the gun shop still has to call it in to the FBI, who can still hold up the sale if they choose to until they've verified no recent activities to make them go 'hold on a minute'.

As for Richard, Jamie's actually right - he does look stupid, especially to any serious firearms users. Gangsta carry and gangsta aim may give gangsta cred, but holding the gun sideways like that is an unstable grip which provides little in the way of balance or accuracy, even at relatively close range. I tend to prefer Weaver stance myself - http://www.co-optimus.com/images/upload ... weaver.jpg for an example. So while Jamie is not being very intelligent himself in this, he's at least verifiably correct.

Also, Tailsteak - kudos for drawing it recognizably!
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby pumpkincat » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:49 am

And because I'm a posting fiend this morning (blame it on lack of sleep) I'll also note that as far as Walmart selling you a firearm, if you're willing to wait the 3 day mandatory 'cool-off' period and you don't have a record or any verifiable reason for them (the store or the FBI) to refuse, you can buy a firearm as long as you plonk down the cash.

That's without getting into illegal sales, of course, or weapons thefts. And I'm going out on a limb and thinking Richard is packing a Taurus. More fool he.
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby Alex Starkiller » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:59 am

Two things. One: Thanks for the support and the many bits of additonal information pumpkincat.

Two: Michael Westion rawks. And that is the stance I most often use, though depending on the handgun, it varies. Especially when I am using a PLR-16, which is basically a rifle-turned-handgun, or smaller weapons. And when just out on the range, and extended arm is pretty fun.
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby Globus » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:46 am

TVTropes has an article on this: Useful Notes\Gun Safety and another one on which LS might appear soon: You Fail Gun Safety Forever

Note: Do not click on (or otherwise open) any of the TVTropes links for any reason. They are responsible for the ruin of many lives, they single-handedly brought the universe several hundred kilojoules closer to total entropy, they are a blight on the face of the Internet... and they have a plan.

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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby Alex Starkiller » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:17 am

Yes, You Fail Gun Safety Forever would be an appropriate addition.

However, I believe TVTropes Enhanced My Life! I currently have four different troperiffic pages open! :D
When you're rife with devastation
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You're a toymaker's creation
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby pumpkincat » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:19 pm

Alex Starkiller wrote:Two things. One: Thanks for the support and the many bits of additonal information pumpkincat.

Two: Michael Westion rawks. And that is the stance I most often use, though depending on the handgun, it varies. Especially when I am using a PLR-16, which is basically a rifle-turned-handgun, or smaller weapons. And when just out on the range, and extended arm is pretty fun.


Quite welcome! And yeah, it will vary depending on weapon. I only own one handgun, though, and the Weaver stance works best for me for that (it's a Remington 1911 chambered in .45ACP). Fairly macho recoil, but the weight of the pistol soaks up a lot of it, making it a good choice (contrary to what a lot of idiots try to tell me) for a woman's grip. The handgrip itself is built for a medium to small-sized hand, which is the big problem for a lot of women. Soaks up recoil, accurate in aiming (as accurate as the shooter, anyway), good penetration - the only down side I see is that some people prefer something you can conceal more readily. And it is a heavy piece of hardware.

My other firearms are all long guns, of varying levels of historical interest. All of them are practical and functional pieces, however.

(Note : the story related below this point may upset people for whom animal death is disturbing. I'd rather not be responsible for that, so I'm putting this warning here.)


Additional side note concerning stance - at one point, we had a possum coming to our place and raiding the ducks' nests. We chased it away once - my SO had stepped off the porch to look for it and it ran out while he'd left the rifle on the porch. I was standing by the side of the house with my sidearm, so I took a shot at it. It was the first time I'd shot at a /moving/ target; I didn't hit it, but there were kicked-up patches of earth where it had been a second ago. Didn't see it for a few nights, so we thought it'd learned this was not the best place to be for getting a free meal.

A full week went by - and it came back. I was alone and heard a loud thump from the porch while I was in the house and rushed out with my pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other and no idea of what the noise actually was. (Try this sometime and see how it feels. There is a slight element of feeling ridiculous - 'I know I'm being the one who gets it in every horror movie ever made' - but concern for one's responsibilities and dependents, of which livestock must count towards, overrides it remarkably well.)

No sign of anything but all the geese were clustered together giving the porch the stinkeye, and the duck whose nest was under the porch at the time was out looking very distressed. I looked under the porch and saw the possum standing over her nest, casually eating eggs and ignoring the beam of the flashlight pinning it in place.

Now, I couldn't shoot it - it was under the porch up against the foundation of the house. There was no way to get a safe shot at it without risking hitting the house, let alone the animals. So I waited. And eventually it came out, paused, looked at me as if to say 'You're not gonna shoot /me/' - and proceeded to try to amble away.

This time I didn't miss.

I may, however, in my nervous desire to make sure I got a clean kill and it didn't suffer, have shot it a few more times than strictly necessary.

Now, the first time I was shooting at it, I was doing Weaver stance. The second time, I don't think I was using both hands. I don't remember. It all went a bit blurry with adrenaline and a little bit of shock. So it's worth pointing out that in an actual 'live' situation, the habits you acquire in practice DO help, but they can go right out the window amazingly fast.
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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby typhon » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:50 pm

I live in a country where it is much, much easier to buy a baseball bat than a gun, for which you need several administrative authorizations. There are several kinds of licenses and registration systems (I'm not familiar with it in detail), and eight different categories of weapons each with their own (draconian) regulation system.

I'm not too fond of bureaucracy as a general rule, but in that particular case, it doesn't bother me.

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Re: Mugging Jamie

Postby Alex Starkiller » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:43 pm

Well, that's your opinion. I'd hate that myself.
When you're rife with devastation
There's a simple explanation:
You're a toymaker's creation
Trapped inside a crystal ball
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Quoth the Raven, "Swag galore."
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